Nowadays amp with oldschool speed?? - DIYMA Car Audio Forum

17 Hours Ago	? #1
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: May 2009 Location: spain Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi all, I have owned several amps to run my Dynaudio Esotar 650 drivers: - Genesis Dual Mono - Genesis Dual Mono Extreme - 2x Genesis Miniblock - Mosconi AS200.4 - Rokford T1000-4 - Rockford T1000-4ad Each step was an improvement on speed and attack. But some days ago I tested an old school Orion NT200 with my dyns, and it drove them even faster and more "attackative" than all the amps listed above... Which nowadays amp shines because its control, speed and high sound quality at the same time?? I am llooking for the best. But I would need to know your opinion from overseas, because here in europe we have all soft sounding amps when it cames to extreme driver control. i supposed american amps would be better at this matter, like old school amps did, so i tried Rockford. And they did it better than Genesis or Mosconi. But i need something much better controlling the driver, like the Orion NT200... Is there any brand or model nowadays who cares that muuch about extreme driver control combined with sound quality?? What i am looking for is what the NT200 did: the bass sound like quick and fast like a bolt, and great sound quality at the same time. Thanks guys!
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16 Hours Ago	? #3
? DIYMA Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Belgium Age: 27 Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 7 Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts	Since you find Mosconi better sounding than Genesis, and Rockford even better... I'd say you want the most agressive sounding amplifier (which I can understand on Dynaudio midwoofers)... I'd say try to find a Steg Qmos or Steg K. I used to have Steg Qmos amps before I switched to Genesis and I made that switch because the Steg amps were WAY too agressive for me (made the Dynaudio MD100 tweeters I had back then pierce my ears almost literally)! This has nothing to do with "oldschool speed"... I wouldn't call Genesis amps "soft", they're the most neutral amps I've ever heard and that's exactly why I bought mine. When talking about "soft", I'm thinking more in the lines of Audison, Sinfoni... Isabelle
	Car-audio history since 2004: - 2000 Renault Clio: cancelled... - 1992 Volvo 940: cancelled... - 1990 Saab 900: cancelled....... - 1994 Citro?n Jumper: cancelled... - 1989 Volvo 740: cancelled...... - 1993 Saab 900: cancelled... I really should start building faster than the car breaks down!
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16 Hours Ago	? #4
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: May 2009 Location: spain Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Isabelle, what i am looking for is extreme driver control. I liked genesis a lot, i was fan of them. but the control of inertial drivers is not the best. i would love to find an amp as good sounding as Genesis miniblocks, and with the great control of the NT200. Thanks coppertone, Is precision power as good at controlling the driver as the old Orions? What i am looking for is extreme driver control, which makes the low bass sound crystal clear, fast and transparent, as the old Orions did (without forgetting a great overall SQ) i will appreciatte any opinion! but i am not looking for opinions based on Dampng Factor figures, etc. I would love opinions based on real comparisons and experiences! ;-)
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15 Hours Ago	? #5
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: kansas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Attackative I like that :thumbup:
	2012 toyota 4runner, Kenwood 6990 hu Scanspeak tweets, Zapco active crosover, L6 mid fronts Focal polyglass rear, JL 900/5, Focal sub
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15 Hours Ago	? #6
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Knoxville Posts: 47 12V Company: The Sound Factory Position: Store Manager Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Sounds to me like you just described the new linear power amps perfectly
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14 Hours Ago	? #7
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: May 2009 Location: spain Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	where can they be bought? Any online shop? Or just local installers? Is this the web page? Is rather poor... Seems to show lots of old models mixed with new models... I am unable to get clean information from it... Is there any new web page? thanks tnaudio!
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14 Hours Ago	? #9
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: kansas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I believe by attack he means quick tight sound impact. Once you reach your install limits (sound deadening, phase and time alignment) provided your drivers are fast enough I think then you can tell a difference in amp control. Maybe like getting hit by a metal bat opposed to a soft wooden one. Most would just say it hurts but a critical person might critique the impact and realize the metal had a bit more attack. Lol. But seriously... I think I understand what op is saying
	2012 toyota 4runner, Kenwood 6990 hu Scanspeak tweets, Zapco active crosover, L6 mid fronts Focal polyglass rear, JL 900/5, Focal sub
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12 Hours Ago	? #11
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: kansas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	That is a fact? Wow. A lot of people wasting money on high dollar amps then. Silly people.
	2012 toyota 4runner, Kenwood 6990 hu Scanspeak tweets, Zapco active crosover, L6 mid fronts Focal polyglass rear, JL 900/5, Focal sub
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12 Hours Ago	? #12
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: kansas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Maybe I jumped a bit and made a smartass comment without understanding what you we're saying I apologize Maybe what you are saying is that output impedance is a determining factor for how an amp sounds? That would call for a slightly different smartass comment. Lol. Not that I'm an expert by any means.
	2012 toyota 4runner, Kenwood 6990 hu Scanspeak tweets, Zapco active crosover, L6 mid fronts Focal polyglass rear, JL 900/5, Focal sub
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12 Hours Ago	? #13
? DSOTM Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: LFT Age: 39 Posts: 3,174 Thanks: 64 Thanked 78 Times in 69 Posts	Quote: That is a fact? Wow. A lot of people wasting money on high dollar amps then. Silly people. It's the power of marketing and blind faith. The problem is that one's ears are connected to a brain, and preconceived notions, such as "more expensive is better," tend to overrule logic and reason. Usually, the more expensive products are built with better components, Mundorf capacitors, gold circuit board traces, etc., but not always. Critical Mass is the perfect example in the 12 volt world of more expensive is just more expensive.
	Disclaimer: Posts made under the screen name ChrisB are for entertainment use only! Opinions, conclusions, and other information in these posts that do not relate to ChrisB, shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by ChrisB.
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12 Hours Ago	? #14
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: kansas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ok. I knew that first comment was not a good one as soon as I sent it. Yes, more expensive is not better. You just had to pull the critical mass card tho... lol. Yes they are a scam if you ask me. Especially after seeing the amp guts. Now I could be totally wrong as I have never heard one. They could have magical pixie dust in them. About the op's question. I would like to hear more about those linear power amps. Maybe they will make the plumb crazy color again ftw! Or what about the new PG amps?
	2012 toyota 4runner, Kenwood 6990 hu Scanspeak tweets, Zapco active crosover, L6 mid fronts Focal polyglass rear, JL 900/5, Focal sub
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12 Hours Ago	? #15
? DSOTM Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: LFT Age: 39 Posts: 3,174 Thanks: 64 Thanked 78 Times in 69 Posts	Just don't make the mistake of getting sucked into the cult of Linear Power. I did, tossed logic and reason aside, and ended up with a product that did not meet my needs. Quote: Or what about the new PG amps? They are trying to make their way back to the good old days of a dealer supported network with a quality product. That philosophy could prove to be a bad business decision in this economy. Here are a few things to consider when choosing products for car audio: 1. The economy is global now. One's high dollar product better perform if it going to compete in the market of Audison, Brax, Genesis, Helix, Mosconi, Steg, etc. 2. The automobile is the worst audio reproduction environment known to man. Even the most basic of home recording studios will outperform many of the elaborate $10,000 plus car audio setups. 3. There is a law of diminishing returns where one doubles cost for single digit percentage improvements, or in my case, ends up being double digit percentage disappointed when purchasing a more expensive product. I can continue going on, but I don't want to melt anyone's brain.
	Disclaimer: Posts made under the screen name ChrisB are for entertainment use only! Opinions, conclusions, and other information in these posts that do not relate to ChrisB, shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by ChrisB.
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11 Hours Ago	? #16
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: kansas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Quote: Just don't make the mistake of getting sucked into the cult of Linear Power. I did, tossed logic and reason aside, and ended up with a product that did not meet my needs. They are trying to make their way back to the good old days of a dealer supported network with a quality product. That philosophy could prove to be a bad business decision in this economy. Here are a few things to consider when choosing products for car audio: 1. The economy is global now. One's high dollar product better perform if it going to compete in the market of Audison, Brax, Genesis, Helix, Mosconi, Steg, etc. 2. The automobile is the worst audio reproduction environment known to man. Even the most basic of home recording studios will outperform many of the elaborate $10,000 plus car audio setups. 3. There is a law of diminishing returns where one doubles cost for single digit percentage improvements, or in my case, ends up being double digit percentage disappointed when purchasing a more expensive product. I can continue going on, but I don't want to melt anyone's brain. I know that's all pretty much correct but damn dude! To hear all that at once is depressing to car audio fiends. You melted my smile. Hope you are happy.
	2012 toyota 4runner, Kenwood 6990 hu Scanspeak tweets, Zapco active crosover, L6 mid fronts Focal polyglass rear, JL 900/5, Focal sub
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10 Hours Ago	? #18
? DIYMA Loyalist Join Date: May 2009 Location: Bakersfield Posts: 2,720 Thanks: 85 Thanked 185 Times in 159 Posts	I know my opinion doesn't mean much but since I couldn't hear a difference in amps, some very high end amps on my Esotars in the same car, I went with the JL HDs due to the size, efficiency, output, and low noise floor. I'll probably pick amps out using the same criteria in the future as well.
	'84 GN 10.60@ 127mph. Infinity 3.5 coaxials and a cheap Sony HU. '06 TL. Front stage- Dynaudio 102, 430, 182.... AE IB15s....JL HD600/4, HD900/5....MS8....SecondSkin.... Coming very soon, a trio of Dyn 1200 subs, 110 tweeters, JL HD 1200, another JL HD 600/4, and PS8.
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9 Hours Ago	? #19
? DSOTM Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: LFT Age: 39 Posts: 3,174 Thanks: 64 Thanked 78 Times in 69 Posts	Quote: I know my opinion doesn't mean much but since I couldn't hear a difference in amps, some very high end amps on my Esotars in the same car, I went with the JL HDs due to the size, efficiency, output, and low noise floor. I'll probably pick amps out using the same criteria in the future as well. Yeah, but let's assume someone fed you a huge line of BS that had you believing something that was totally false? I won't mention the company name, but their head honcho claimed that class d amplifiers could NEVER sound as good as class ab, even on subwoofers. Another person I will mention, Stephen Mantz (aka Zed), used to say that full range class d would never sound as good as class ab. He even wrote a whitepaper to "prove" it. Care to guess what class topology his new amplifiers are? The problem is, people hear these negative things, believe them, and it changes their perception of what they hear based on a negative preconceived notion. I performed a similar pseudo experiment on one of my self professed audiophile friends who hated Class D amplifiers with a passion. He thought I was still running all Lunar when he listened to my car (the Mehstang Garbage Trinket). You should have seen the look on his face when I popped the trunk and showed him the lowly JL Audio HD900/5 powering the whole system. It was PRICELESS!
	Disclaimer: Posts made under the screen name ChrisB are for entertainment use only! Opinions, conclusions, and other information in these posts that do not relate to ChrisB, shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by ChrisB.
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9 Hours Ago	? #22
? DIYMA freshman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 204 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts	The reason why you can really only compare amplifier in the same class is because testing my Topping TP-21 MKII T-amp on an o-scope I did notice on high frequency reproduction there is a slight rounding off of sharp transitions above 10 khz or so. It's especially more noticeable on high frequency square waves. This is most likely caused by the series filtering inductor on the output of the amp. This is probably what people consider the "smooth" sound that T-Amps are reputed to have. It does tend to reduce sibilance on songs that I know tend to make my sound system sibilant. It's also one the contributors to the "tube sound". A friend of mine plays in a band and asked me if I could replicate the "tube sound" on a solid state amplifier without resorting to digital processing since he just wants a plug and play system so what I ended up doing was taking his old cheap guitar amp and simply putting a slight treble attenuation on it and then on the output simply putting an 8 ohm speaker line matching transformer. He told me it sounded just like his old tube amp and was amazed how a simple modification can make the sound as warm as the old school tech. The point I'm trying to make is that if you have a low output impedance on an amp you're going to have woofer control. Now I do notice there is a difference on output impedance on high bias A/B amps which unfortunately tend to run hot but I suppose that could be a contributor also to better woofer control but you don't see this often on car systems because it really makes your amp run hot even at idle. Some of the old school MTX amps did this and were reputed to have extremely good sound quality but I distinctly remember these being hot running amps that people didn't like because they simply ran too hot.
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